Candid Conversations on the Tamron Hall Show
First let me say, I love the Tamron Hall Show, I watch or record it everyday.
Recently Tamron Hall started a series called “Candid Conversations” and the first episode was about what defines womanhood. And since a lot of people think woman equals mom, her panel included 2 moms - one with 5 kids and one with 2 kids and two unmarried women who had decided not to have children. Here’s my first problem. It’s apples and oranges. If you’re going to have married moms, then have married DINKs. If you’re going to have unmarried women who don’t want to have children, have unmarried women with children. That’s a balanced conversation.
But what do I know, I’m not the producer…. Maybe they couldn’t find any married women who don’t want kids…. We can’t possibly exist.
Quite a few people emailed and texted me asking why are you not on this show? Yeah Tamron, why wasn’t I on the show?
The opening question was how do you define womanhood. If you ask most moms this question, the first thing they say is I’m a mom of one, five, twelve. Many moms define themselves by their children.
If you remember nothing else from this episode, I want you to know that woman/womanhood and mother/motherhood are not interchangeable terms.
I appreciate Tamron using her platform to open the discussion about the choices women make and I’m here to cheer for those women who are childfree.
Let’s talk about this episode!
What is a modern woman? Kamala Harris, stepmom with no biological children; Amy Coney Barrett, first Supreme Court Justice with school aged kids, Dolly Parton who has said not having children gave her the freedom to have her career.
Here’s the panel - we have the Mommy Mafia represented by Michelle and Diane and the SINKs Mallorie and Kimberly.
Michelle has 5 kids and lives in Salt Lake City UT - She says having children is the most fulfilling journey of her life. She’s honored to be a mother and being a mother has helped her be the best version of herself. Being a mom defines her. Having kids changed who she was as a person and has taken every aspect of her as women, magnified it and made it better. The sacrifices have shaped her. When asked if she was unfulfilled prior to having children, she said no but wants to carry on her Thai heritage through her children. What about spontaneity, she said she wanted a 4th child and got twins instead. Such a mom answer, that is not the spontaneity Tamron was talking about. But she agreed, getaways without her children are needed. Well Michelle, are you less of a woman if you don’t have kids? She says no in the sense that you are physically a woman but does think it has magnified her womanly attributes like being fierce and strong, being compassionate and nurturing (I guess I’m none of these things). She wants to pass these attributes on to her children especially her daughters, whether they choose to have children or not (yeah no one believes you…) She works from home because she was afraid of being like her stay at home mom who was lost when her children left the nest. She says she is so much more than a mom but it’s her biggest responsibility to pass on her beliefs to her children.
Diane has 2 children and lives in Los Angeles, CA. She defines womanhood as continuous growth and sacrificial love. She says she struggled with her own identity, since she was one of the first of her friends to have kids in her early twenties. Would she be defined as “ just a mom now”; would her husband be attracted to her after the children. Sometimes she doesn’t have time to shower, and doesn’t feel attractive. She also didn’t know who she was a person when she got pregnant. Would it be too late to follow her dreams when her kids don’t need her? She’s accepted there is time and place for all things and this her time to be a mother. Being a mom is a compromise for her because she doesn’t have time for anything else. Based on her experience I’m glad I’ve chosen the childfree lifestyle.
Now on to the SINKs!
Mallorie is 32 years old from Sammamish, WA. She says women are creators period and she values her independence over kids. In her Mexican heritage, there are lots of large families. Women are supposed to grow up, get married and have babies. Right now, she doesn’t even have a boyfriend but she does have lots of family pressure with relatives looking her like what’s wrong with you? She used to be defensive but now uses humor saying she has a healthy relationship with herself and has stop trying to convince people that her choice is valid. Last year she almost settled for a bad relationship to satisfy family pressures. She thinks it shouldn’t be womanhood but woman’s experience and every woman can define it for themselves. She’s been told she won’t know what real love is until she has a baby. This is the mommy mafia go to - I thought love is love is love, but I don’t have kids so I guess I don’t know what love is either. Mallorie was asked do you think about your biological clock, you know because she’s 32. She says she has stayed in relationships longer because of the hope to have children; if it happens it happens but keeping those thoughts in the front of her mind blocks her from the woman experience she should be having.
Kimberly is 31 from Dallas, TX and she says we should normalize women saying they don’t want children. She loves hanging with her nieces but also loves leaving them. Women want different things for their lives. She knows women who have regretted having children (you know they will get kicked out of the mommy mafia for saying that!). Regretting that decision is not in the best interest of the parent nor the child. She values spontaneity and mobility in her life. Most of her interactions are with non moms, so does that mean she’s alienating moms (the horror!) It’s more likely the moms don’t want to hang with her. She believes women in their thirties are doing different things. She can relate to moms in many other areas even though she’s single and free. When you have kids you give up some freedom but she recognizes it’s hard to raise children who are thoughtful, caring and kind and that should be celebrated. If you love being a mom, she celebrates you, but it’s not her choice. She may not be the primary adult but can be a great back up adult. I like that… Kimberly I’m going to use that one.
Sometimes I wonder if moms can really be unbiased when they talk to women who have chosen not to procreate. Tamron starts off by saying Kimberly put a rough line in the sand when she says she doesn’t want children. Well, that’s a little judgy. She seems so stressed to ask the SINKs questions but at ease with the moms. She tells of a friend who called her after she had her son and was told she was in the club. She says she was mad because is this a club where we gang up on non moms - yes Tamron, that’s right the mommy mafia is that club. She said as the only woman on the Today show without children she was told she wasn’t relatable. The Mommy Mafia has so much power that the daytime shows are generally marketed to stay at home moms who couldn’t possibly relate to someone who’s not in the club. Tamron thinks it should be your heart that matters not the birth of a child. Yeah, we all want to believe that but we all know it’s not true.
She talks about buying jewelry for moms, but never saw any for non moms…. Well that’s an idea. As usual, men are never asked if they define themselves as fathers. This discussion was civil and peaceful but we know it can get judgy. Like when Tamron talks about Mallorie and Kimberly saying the two women who have decided right now or maybe never want to have children; clearly she wasn’t listening because Kimberly is firm in her decision not to have kids. Why do we always add the caveat of this can’t be your final decision. She goes on to asked the SINKs do you think about what will happen if you change your mind since time is not on your side? I was waiting for her to ask the moms, what happens when you regret having these children.
Iyanla Vanzant was also a guest and she set some of this straight.
She says we have to give ourselves permission to bring ourselves into the new normal - especially as women. So many women become mothers and define themselves as mother when they haven’t defined themselves as woman. So many women, think the way to define themselves is to become mothers. What is the anatomy of a women? All women are mothers, we birth ideas, things we say out of our mouths can come into being. A lot of us live our lives based on the restrictions men have put on our lives but we get to redefine it. Being willing to put down bad behaviors, not judge each other as we are all seeking fulfillment as women. Grow into women you want to be. Women tend to define themselves by what they do, not how they be. How do you define woman is for you to determine. Motherhood is a role, womanhood is an action, woman is a divine being. And mothers have taught their children them what to do, not how to be and there in lies the problem.
I love these SINKs standing up for their choice not to have children but I still think having DINKs on the show would give a more balanced discussion. Especially when you only show the SINKs ages…Never gave the ages of the moms because I guess it doesn’t matter how old they are because there’s no biological clock remaining for them.
Next in the series of Candid Conversations is an episode about working inside the home vs working outside the home - I’m going to let the mommy podcasters tackle that one but I will say I’m not mad at the mom who at times prioritizes her job over her children, I wish she was my coworker.
Have you been watching Candid Conversations on Tamron Hall? What do you you think?
Side note - I was at an outdoor fair over the weekend and a woman said to me “you look familiar, what are the ages of your children”. How do you think I responded?
I received my Spotify 2020 Wrapped for Podcasts and thanks to you Mom of None, the Not for Parents podcast has reached 24 countries!!! Whoop whoop! Thanks for listening and don’t forget to share this episode with your friends!
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